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Permalink Reply by Hang, Chumnith on June 29, 2008 at 11:47am

Now you tell me, I posted most of it under another heading. The next one will be here.

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Permalink Reply by Lilly on June 29, 2008 at 1:05pm

lolz, I'm sorry Bong Pross. I know you did but that is good others will learn from it because Preah Vihear is all related with Khmer's history. Thank you for doing that. Hope you have fun with your kid and wife especially Panavong. My little king. Take care.

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Permalink Reply by Lilly on June 30, 2008 at 7:24am

Good morning Bong Pross,

I hope your weekend was great. Continuing on with my book reading. I got another question for you. How close tied are the Thai and VN? In the book, its mention that they were rival. Are they still?

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Permalink Reply by Hang, Chumnith on June 30, 2008 at 7:28am

The rivalry is still there. The Siamese are well aware of the fighting skills of VN troops. Kampuchea serves as a very nice buffer zone. During the 1970s and 1980s, the Siamese were concerned about the possible encroachment of the VN on their soil.

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Permalink Reply by Hang, Chumnith on June 30, 2008 at 7:26am

I am always taking the position that before blaming others, we need to examine ourselves first. In my humblest opinion I believe that we are to blame for the lost of our land. Of course others are also to blame. The immediate neighbors, Siam and VN, saw through our weaknesses and took our land. In recent history, the Chinese and the US also contribute, through direct and indirect modes, to our downfall.

It is true that had it not been the French, Angkor and Khmer cultures would be brushed aside under the mat of Siam. Also, had it not been for the French, Khmers in Kampuchea today would possibly be living in Siam or VN. In other words, they would have absorbed Khmer’s territory may be in the late 19th century.

King Ang Duong was the great great-grand father of King Sihanouk. He was perhaps the first Khmer king who realized the danger of association with Siam and VN.

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Permalink Reply by Lilly on June 30, 2008 at 7:33am

Thank you Bong Pross. I'll be reading some more during my lunch time.

Take care.

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Permalink Reply by Lilly on June 30, 2008 at 3:20pm

Here is an excerpt from the book that I find it interesting. “In any case, the events of 1967-69 provide compelling evidence that it was neither U.S. bombing nor Allied incursions that brought Cambodia into a full-scale war or led it to the infamous killing fields. By the time of America’s heightened profile on the Cambodian landscape, the Khmer nation already had been invaded by the Communists and its people already were involved in a budding civil war.” What is your interpretation on this one statement?

As I read this book, I have comes to my conclusion that the dynamics of Khmer’s politics are too deep and complex and it is very hard for me to understand because there are so many parties involved. And there are so many acronym names of parties that are hard for me to recognize. I wish there is a time table or even a definition of the acronym what are all stand for so. It could make my reading easier if there is one. I forgot what that K.R. stands for. Is it stands for Khmer Republic?

I’m sure I might not understand the full scale many of these parties, their politics, and their purpose and so forth but at least it helps me to understand a little what the leading cause of the killing field.

Why there are so many parties in Cambodia? Were the Khmer leaders in the past and in present are driven by money and power? Or they are just part of the puppets influence by China, VN communism? I think may be it was a mistake for Cambodian to let the communist VN have an embassy in Cambodia. May be that is how is all started, invasion of communism.

What is your takes on that Bong Pross.

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Permalink Reply by Oudam on June 30, 2008 at 4:47pm

“In any case, the events of 1967-69 provide compelling evidence that it was neither U.S. bombing nor Allied incursions that brought Cambodia into a full-scale war or led it to the infamous killing fields. By the time of America’s heightened profile on the Cambodian landscape, the Khmer nation already had been invaded by the Communists and its people already were involved in a budding civil war.”

I have not read this book, but statements like this are very troubling given the interdependency of the events leading the Cambodian tragedy. From 1969-1973 more than 2.71 million tons of bombs-- more than those dropped in all of World War II-- were dropped on Cambodia, killing many hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. Imagine yourself in the shoes a hapless villager whose family is constantly bombarded by the B-52 bombers. Who are the good guys-- those who bomb your village back into the Stone Age and tell you it's all for your own "freedom" and "democracy" or those who offer you a chance to save your loved ones by joining a resistance to oppose the killings? If you choose the latter and in the end you prevail, would you not want to avenge the deaths of family and relatives?

To state that the U.S. bombings did not contribute to the killing fields is simply wrong and narrow-minded because the Khmer Rouge regime might not have been carried out in the same way that it was, certainly not with the same vigor and madness, if not for the anger, hatred, and vengeance that were sowed by the events, including the American bombings, and social and political climates of Cambodia leading to the war.

Without commenting on the book or any ulterior motives of its author, I would caution against taking things out of context when analyzing Cambodia's recent history. We should study our recent sad history not to point fingers or prove a personal point, but to prevent it from repeating. The two words to keep in mind are interrelationship and interdependency.

For more information on US involvement, check Yale University's Cambodian Genocide Project:

http://www.yale.edu/cgp/us.html

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Permalink Reply by Lilly on June 30, 2008 at 8:41pm

Hi Oudam,

Your point is taken. Thanks for enlightening me. From the beginning, my main purpose of wanting to read this kind of book is I want to understand Cambodian politics, history and its people. This book is only the start for me of my Book Club. But in the mean time I try to put things in perspective and not pointing fingers to no one. As Bong Pross Chumnith had mentioned in one of his statement somewhere in this Forum discussion that what started it all of the killing fields is no one to blame but our self, our ancestors and our leaders for not realizing the work of the political maneuver among other nations. And even if we do realizing it, we couldn’t stand a chance against our neighboring states Thai and VN according to our history stated in the beginning of the book. Therefore, Sihanouk’s grad grand-father King Ang Duong fear that his Kingdom was doomed he turned to Europe which it was the French at the time in 1853 to open door to diplomatic relations with the France.

Why we are at war at each other that causing so many lives? As I told you before I never like politics and don’t want to be one. As you can see, most of my writing to Bong Pross Chumnith mostly I am asking him questions. He helped me to interpret some of the doubt and confusion that I have about this book. He helps me put in a simple English language so that I can understand. So far he is been doing a great job in helpful me. I'm very grateful for his help. And he has helped me a lot as far as putting things in perspective. There is a saying a mind is a terrible things to waste. I like to study. I like to keep my mind active and by doing that reading is part of it. My major of studies is business. I don’t have a political sciences degree so politics is a difficult subject for me to understand. After all we are Khmer should learn, get educate to become better our self so that we won’t easily influence by other. Hopefully we become a better person and to understand the world that we live in.

I’m aware of the bombing B-52 and a lot of innocents live lost. But to understand the history we are the history. We are the survivors of the war; therefore, history is in us. We can educate and tell our children what we had been through. But when you mention about pointing fingers or to proof personal point of view it is hard for me to understand where you coming from because these proof of one views are only part of our life experiences that we had encounter like we were living during the war. I think the author in this book his time line of Khmer’s history is accurate base on the event that were happening at the time. Our emotions, feelings, anger, frustration will always be there. I’m glad that you have brought this to my attention and join my book discussion. It is a book club. We can voice our opinion and proof our point of view with each other. That is how we learn from one another. After all without your comment, I wouldn’t be responding this back to you. Won’t it? I know you’re a smart person and a busy person. But I would suggest since you like to talk about politics this is one good book to read, only if you have times. It shed me some light about Khmer's history and its people. As I mention earlier in the last statement to Bong Pross Chumnith, that Khmer's politics are deep and complex. It is politics so it’s hard to understand. I guess it comes in the territory.

As far as my reading wanting to know what the author trying to tell the readers, I tried not to interpret of what not already been said in the book. When you mention about the B-52 bombings are all true but that only one piece of the puzzle that are missing from the whole picture that the author trying to tell the readers. Here are more excerpts from the book, "Cambodia's road to the killing fields of the mid-1970s began at the juncture of two other paths - one the centuries-old ambitions of neighboring states, the other the small nation-crunching competition of the East-West giants. U.S. interest in Cambodia grew from the fear of Communist expansion. Whether the threat in Southeast Asia was viewed as a monolithic or a nationalistic communism was deemed irrelevant. It was the question of police state communism, made possible by the two largest Communist countries, trying to take over an area of the world believed by the Western democracies to be of strategic important. Had not the North Vietnamese leader studied in the Soviet Union and served as a Comintern agent in China? And wasn't he one of the founders of the French Communist Party? Furthermore, like Stalin in Russia, Ho Chi Minh had conducted a purge, killing and imprisoning thousands, only a decade after taking over the Vietnamese nationalist movement by convincing his opponents he had American support."

As you can see, there will be more reading for me down the line and more confusion to come as I’m leaning toward almost finishing it. But I’ll be asking Bong Pross Chumnith again to help me if he doesn’t mind. Knowing that I will be getting a good helping hand from him, otherwise, I’m clueless about the whole thing. Anyway, I’m on my way to the Library contemplating and reading again.

Take care

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Permalink Reply by Oudam on June 30, 2008 at 10:03pm

Hi Lilly,

Like I said I have not read the book, so I can't really comment on its content or the author's intents. I was just making a comment on the general idea that the B-52's did not contribute to the killing fields. One could argue that the illegal bombings, much of which were indiscriminate, constitute a genocidal act in itself, but they called it "collateral damage" and made it a footnote in the history of the Southeast Asian conflict.

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Permalink Reply by Hang, Chumnith on July 1, 2008 at 8:54am

The bombing of srok Khmer helped widening the playing fields for VC and KR; it fanned the flames that eventually spreaded through Khmer land. Later during Mr. Lon Nol regime, ordinary Khmer peasants resented the South VN and the US. The KR seized on the opportunity and recruited them to fight the US and the South VN in the name of Sihanouk. I think that when Mr Hun Sen came in. An ordinary peasant who took up arms to fight against the injustice cause by the giants.

The initial intent of the bombardment was to drive out the VC (not KR) from their hiding places. Having nowhere else to run, the VC ended up penetrating deep into Khmer soils, a fact that Prince Sihanouk regretted.

The bombing itself was an act of genocide and was so secretive. Even the pilots that flew the planes did not really know where they were flying to until they got up so high. There they were given their new coordinates. Some pilots eventually found out and they protested against the secret bombing and senseless killing of civilians. Some were courtmarshalled but were later reinstated because they were testifying in the senate.

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Permalink Reply by Oudam on June 30, 2008 at 10:28pm

By the way, to prevent a re-occurrence of the killing fields, the Khmer people should look into:

* equal social, educational, and economic opportunities for all citizens
* reducing/eliminating class and ethnic divisions
* refraining from recruiting foreign involvement in internal matters
* social tolerance and political plurality
* decentralizing power and promoting a system of checks and balance
* reforming the government to allow peaceful transitions of power
* public education

Feel free to add to the list.

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